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Fantasy » alt.fan.pratchett » [I] Calling all Website/database experts
| [I] Calling all Website/database experts [message #273830] |
Mi, 24 Mai 2006 21:25 |
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I am a Trustee of the British Humanist Association, (a registered charit=
y) =
which has a website and an associated SQL database for membership things=
, =
secure shop, data mining etc.
The current site can be seen at www.humanism.org.uk and the Board of =
Trustees need to have it improved/updated/and generally tweaked. The =
problem is that we have been quoted a cost of between =A325k to =A330k p=
lus =
ongoing support, and I think this is way too much. We need a new design =
=
and improved navigation, but we will provide all the content.
Two questions for the web gurus out there:
1) Am I right to be cautious about the cost?
2) Is there anyone who could offer (on a strictly commercial basis) thei=
r =
services to do the job for us?
THREE questions
3) Does anyone know of a commercial Web design outfit who could be =
recommended?
All right, Amongst the questions are such diverse ..... (sorry)
4) How long should the rebuild take, and assuming the database is a =
bog-standard SQL (or so I am told) why should the existing site be causi=
ng =
so much trouble (again, this is what the member of staff has told the =
Board of Trustees.)
Your comments here will be greatly appreciated.
-- =
"The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any =
member of a civilised commuinity, against [their] will is to prevent har=
m =
to others. [Their] own good, either physical or moral, is not a =
sufficient warrant"
John Stuart Mill, On Liberty 1859
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| Re: [I] Calling all Website/database experts [message #273850 ] |
Mi, 24 Mai 2006 22:06 |
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On 24/05/2006 20:25, RuneMaster wrote:
> I am a Trustee of the British Humanist Association, (a registered
> charity) which has a website and an associated SQL database for
> membership things, secure shop, data mining etc.
and using asp rather than php (which in my opinion people charge more
for, but that may be just an impression of mine)
> The current site can be seen at www.humanism.org.uk and the Board
> of Trustees need to have it improved/updated/and generally tweaked.
> The problem is that we have been quoted a cost of between £25k to
> £30k plus ongoing support, and I think this is way too much. We
> need a new design and improved navigation, but we will provide all
> the content.
It seems a lot, but you do have a fair amount of content there. Not to
mention various extra twiddly bits - shopping cart, mailing lists,
member system and no doubt more!
But it does sound like a complete new system rather than tweaking what
is there. Of course tweaking what is there may take longer and cost
more in the long run, because you have to 'learn' what is coded before
you can tweak it.
> Two questions for the web gurus out there:
>
> 1) Am I right to be cautious about the cost?
In my opinion yes. But it does depend a lot on what you have actually
asked for.
> 2) Is there anyone who could offer (on a strictly commercial basis)
> their services to do the job for us?
Yes, but not me, because it is asp, now if it was php/mysql...
> THREE questions 3) Does anyone know of a commercial Web design
> outfit who could be recommended?
Do you have any tender documents ready to be sent out? I would suggest
adding an advert via:
http://www.gawds.org/market/
and if you don't get any joy, contact me and I'll prod a few of them
into action.
(apologies for the interface though, one area of the site that is need
of an overhaul IMO)
> All right, Amongst the questions are such diverse ..... (sorry)
>
> 4) How long should the rebuild take, and assuming the database is a
> bog-standard SQL (or so I am told) why should the existing site be
> causing so much trouble (again, this is what the member of staff
> has told the Board of Trustees.)
Sometimes using an existing database can take longer because you have
to fit things to that, rather than create a database to fit what you
have - if you see what I mean.
Are the British Humanist Association aware of PAS78 (Guide to Good
Practice in Commissioning Accessible Websites) - because it would be
applicable to this site.
Hope this is of some use, if not feel free to get in touch.
elfin
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| [I]Calling all Website/database experts [message #274195 ] |
Fr, 26 Mai 2006 16:35 |
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In article <e52eeg$jmq$1 [at] mud.stack.nl>, elfin <elfin [at] lspace.org> writes
>On 24/05/2006 20:25, RuneMaster wrote:
>> I am a Trustee of the British Humanist Association, (a registered
>> charity) which has a website and an associated SQL database for
>> membership things, secure shop, data mining etc.
>
Which is quite a lot of distinct functionality with differing and
sometimes conflicting requirements.
>> The current site can be seen at www.humanism.org.uk and the Board
>> of Trustees need to have it improved/updated/and generally tweaked.
>> The problem is that we have been quoted a cost of between £25k to
>> £30k plus ongoing support, and I think this is way too much. We
>> need a new design and improved navigation, but we will provide all
>> the content.
>
>It seems a lot, but you do have a fair amount of content there. Not to
>mention various extra twiddly bits - shopping cart, mailing lists,
>member system and no doubt more!
>
>But it does sound like a complete new system rather than tweaking what
>is there. Of course tweaking what is there may take longer and cost
>more in the long run, because you have to 'learn' what is coded before
>you can tweak it.
I agree with elfin here but you need to decide what you want and what
you can afford. Since anyone seems to be able to whip up a few web
pages with Front Page there is a tendency to undervalue the skill set of
really good web developers IME. Try translating the hours of creative
work, coding, testing and support into hours at a highly skilled rate
rather than a hobby developer rate and it adds up very quickly.
What you are asking here is "I've been offered a car, it will cost
<foo>, is it a good price?"
To which my answer would be along the lines of:
- is it a Rolls or an old rustbucket?
- what do you need to do with your car?
- what is your car budget?
- how much will the insurance/running costs be?
etc.
What value do you put on a website? They are commonly the primary source
of new business for companies and charities and that trend is
increasing.
You want to have an online, secure shop - does it need to be 24*7, what
outage could you stand, what level of recovery do you need?
You want to run mail lists - similar questions apply.
Ditto questions on membership management, data mining and all the other
areas of functionality.
Which are most important? Data mining (I'm guessing you are talking
reports here or do you mean a search facility?) is not typically as
business critical in the short term (minutes/hours) as data security and
financial transactions.
What level of service do you want on going? Do you want to be able to
call on people at any time, do you want to call on support for specific
services at any time whilst leaving the others for a day, a week,
whatever? Do you want guarantees that changes will be turned around in
a particular timescale?
Do you want to build agreed levels of enhancements and routine
underlying software upgrades into the support contract? Does the cost
include hosting and sufficient bandwidth allowance? Does it include any
software licensing? What hardware, operating system, etc would the site
use? Does it include click data analysis to tell you how your site is
being used?
Do you want to rely on a team of good volunteers (if you have them with
the pre requisite skills) on the 'grace and favour' support level?
>
>> Two questions for the web gurus out there:
>> 1) Am I right to be cautious about the cost?
>
>In my opinion yes. But it does depend a lot on what you have actually
>asked for.
One should always be cautious about costs, however I've seen websites
for medium sized businesses costed at this level and above and still
being cost effective because they generate so much business. It comes
down to budget, requirements and wishes.
[..]
>
>> All right, Amongst the questions are such diverse ..... (sorry)
>> 4) How long should the rebuild take, and assuming the database is a
>> bog-standard SQL (or so I am told) why should the existing site be
>> causing so much trouble (again, this is what the member of staff
>> has told the Board of Trustees.)
How long is a piece of string? (ie how big is it, what read/write
capacity does the hardware have, what backup capabilities do you have
etc etc).
SQL is just the query language used to interrogate relational databases
(broadly, sets of tables which you join a la set theory). The specific
type of database matters - it makes a difference to backup and recovery
options, security, functionality, scaleability and market rates for the
skill set.
To look at some of the more commonly used databases on web
implementations for instance: MySQL is limited in flexibility and scale
but is more widely used at least to the medium level and may well be
quite adequate for your needs; Postgres scales better, has more
functionality and is still Open Source for licensing but is a less
common skill set; SQL/Server ties you to Windows as an OS amongst its
many 'opportunities', I'm not a fan, many others are; Oracle can be made
to tie your shoe laces and bring breakfast for you and half the world
population if you want it, but you may struggle to get good skills at
the cheap end of the market range.
>
>Sometimes using an existing database can take longer because you have
>to fit things to that, rather than create a database to fit what you
>have - if you see what I mean.
Definitely.
Start as if nothing were there at the moment. Decide what you actually
want in priority order (essential, nice-to-have etc) then decide your
budget. At that point you are in a position to discuss costs and scope
with web developers and understand whether you are really talking about
tweaking/updating or if you really need a new site. If you need the
latter but can't afford it then you will at least have clear priorities
for tweaking.
--
Karen/hypatia Karen [at] lspace.org
New? Check http://www.lspace.org
Confused? Mail the Clue Fairies at afp-help [at] lspace.org
Discworld Convention 2006, August 18-21, http://www.dwcon.org
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| Re: [I]Calling all Website/database experts [message #274343 ] |
Fr, 26 Mai 2006 23:48 |
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on 26/05/2006 15:35 Karen said the following:
> In article <e52eeg$jmq$1 [at] mud.stack.nl>, elfin <elfin [at] lspace.org> writes
>>On 24/05/2006 20:25, RuneMaster wrote:
>>>I am a Trustee of the British Humanist Association, (a registered
>>>charity) which has a website and an associated SQL database for
>>>membership things, secure shop, data mining etc.
<snip>
> Start as if nothing were there at the moment. Decide what you actually
> want in priority order (essential, nice-to-have etc) then decide your
> budget.
It might even be cost effective in the long term to employ a consultant
to help you draw up a good web specification that could be used as the
basis for a tender. £2k spent on a solid web spec could save you 10k, or
more, further down the line.
> At that point you are in a position to discuss costs and scope
> with web developers and understand whether you are really talking about
> tweaking/updating or if you really need a new site. If you need the
> latter but can't afford it then you will at least have clear priorities
> for tweaking.
You also need to look at whether you can make use of existing standard
applications (e.g an off-the shelf online shop) or whether you
desperately need a high level of bespoking. The more tailoring you
require, the faster your development charges will rise. In spades.
I noticed that the current site uses a CMS. Is the quoted price for new
CMS + design? Does the quote include hosting? Only a hosted CMS solution
is unlikely to allow for a great deal of bespoking. Most of these
solutions only offer a range of off-the-shelf modules unless you want to
play in the Big League - in which case you could be looking at £50-£100k
systems.
I'd agree that the CMS needs updating, though. The output is pretty dire.
esmi
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